Iron Miners
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:12 pm 
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some of you know, im a mechanic for national coal, and i am the one who works on our tracking system and the leaky feeder communications... there is NO completely wireless tracking or communication system available that will work underground... NONE! that is why the tracking and com. systems described in the 2006 miner act was a suggestion NOT a requirement.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:31 pm 
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Location: tennessee
ive been looking for a recent article i had found to no avail. but i did find this one, its a little older but make sthe point...
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/22/us/22 ... wanted=all

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:39 pm 
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The Miner Act was Supposed to be incorprated into the CFR 3 years after it's inactment which has yet to happen. The whole petition for modification process was thrown out by doing so. In lieu of that you can have expidited hearings hearings but that is a cumbersome process and is heard before a ALJ that works for the DoL there is not a doubt in my mind that the some judges show bias in favor of MSHA being that they both work for the same team. Congress was PROMISED completley WIRELESS tracking which as of today is not available. MSHA's answer to that is the MINER act intended WIRE LESS meaning less wires, don't believe me? It's in the transcripts of court cases that were heard here in Pottsville before an ALJ! The list of things that are wrong with this goes on and on. I'm not against mine safety but I am against Feel Good or misguided legislation that impose a hard ship unecessarily on a Industry. The center piece of the MINER act was Tracking which unfortunatley did not help in this incident in WV. Nor will it help in any similar incident. MSHA's own mandated Seals very well could have played a part in this disaster. What NIT WIT would trap potentialy explosive amounts of gas in a mine when it could be ventilated and rendered harmless?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:48 pm 
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i agree wholeheartedly! i NEVER understood the idea of trapping and keeping potentially dangerous gases underground.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:51 pm 
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politics play a HUGE role in the process... im also a co-captain on the Tn DoL mine rescue team #2, and the political involvement is crippling!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:04 pm 
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I'm involved with our local mine rescue team, Anthracite Underground Rescue (AUGR). We don't have any politics at the local level here thank god! We do have to contend with rules that clearly have no standing here in the Anthracite but are national rules and we do mine coal so it is what it is.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:08 pm 
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these people aggravate me... from a yahoo discussion on the disaster....

Condolences go out to that beautiful but poor part of the country. Not to start conspiracies which this probably isn't, but with all the new "mountain top" removal method's becoming restricted now adays, this Massey company may be thinking of ways to prove "mountain top" removal is a more practical way of extracting coal....just me 2 cents.

That was the first thought that came to my mind as well. Couldn't have happened at a more convenient time with mountaintop removal currently facing death by regulation.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:32 am 
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strip mining has its place, but it can NEVER produce enough to replace UG mining... as long as coal is a major energy source, it will have to be mined UG.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:58 am 
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As I recall the split between U/G and Surface is about even. We're drifting off topic but, There is a term in Surface called stripping ratio. The amount of overburden that can be removed for a foot of coal. Historically it was about 12:1. With the hydraulic shovels and trucks of today the figure is about 20:1. So for a 7 foot vein of coal you can only remove 140 foot of dirt.

That is what is making Wyoming coal so appealing, Their ratio is very low, in some cases approaching 1:1.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:19 am 
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Doug wrote:
As I recall the split between U/G and Surface is about even. We're drifting off topic but, There is a term in Surface called stripping ratio. The amount of overburden that can be removed for a foot of coal. Historically it was about 12:1. With the hydraulic shovels and trucks of today the figure is about 20:1. So for a 7 foot vein of coal you can only remove 140 foot of dirt.

That is what is making Wyoming coal so appealing, Their ratio is very low, in some cases approaching 1:1.


you might have misunderstood me, for surface to replace UG, they would have to, not only maintain the current rate of surface, but double it to replace the UG production... impossible.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:48 am 
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No, I think we are making the same point. I just drifted off, the point is much of WVa's coal is too deep to strip. For that matter, you can add any U/G mining area to that list.

Coal is not mined U/G just for the fun. It is too deep to strip.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:45 am 
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Location: Anthracite Region of PA
Mike A said,
"MSHA's own mandated Seals very well could have played a part in this disaster."

Could someone explain what the "seals" are in relationship to these mines? I think I missed something here.

Thanks,
Scott K

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:46 pm 
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I read online that they thought a mantrip spark might have been responsible for ther fire, but who knows, could have been someone smoking for all we know.

Dose this mine even use trolley wire?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:37 pm 
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chemistry1969 wrote:
Could someone explain what the "seals" are in relationship to these mines? I think I missed something here.

Thanks,
Scott K


The Bitty mines often have long narrow entryways, usually 5, 7 or 9 entires wide and sometimes miles long. Off of these "mains" they will develop smaller sub-mains which are wider and shorter. A sub-main will usually have a narrow entry and they spread wider. When a sub-main is finished. the narrow entry will be sealed off and the area no longer vented. Any methane is allowed to build up above the explosive limit and in theory be stable.

The seal itself is usually a concrete block wall, covered with a stucco like material to make it air tight. The seal a checked regularly for gas leakage.

The Sago Mine Report give a good indication of how these mines are laid out.

http://www.msha.gov/sagomine/PowerPoint/SagoMap.pdf

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:54 pm 
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50tonloco wrote:
I read online that they thought a mantrip spark might have been responsible for ther fire, but who knows, could have been someone smoking for all we know.

Dose this mine even use trolley wire?


Mantrips especially if they are Internal combustion engines would not have been to the working face.

There are also very strict rules about what to do if methane is above 1% Methane is not explosive until 5 or 6 %. At 1.5 % the mine is to evacuated. There are some major safeguards in place here.

http://www.msha.gov/30cfr/75.323.htm

There are to be NO smoking materials, cigarette, matches, lighters etc etc Underground.

http://www.msha.gov/30cfr/75.1702.htm

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